EP1.2: FOOD AS MORALITY

Annie: What's up, everyone? Welcome to Triad Warriors. I am your host, Annie Randall. And this is a safe space for real talk regarding all things your relationship with food.

Today we have a very special guest. In fact, we have our first guest, and I can't think of anyone else who I'd rather kick off the interview portion of this podcast with. With us today we have my friend and fellow anti-diet advocate Carly Newberg. Carly is an author, speaker, freelance writer, and an Enneagram Type 1. Personally, I have known Carly for nearly six years, I think it is now.

And what is so interesting about our friendship is that Carly and I met back during a time when both of us were going through pretty similar hells. However, we did not realize how much we had in common until we each began speaking out about it and speaking out about the challenges that we had both once faced.

I honestly cannot say enough good things about Carly. She is a true inspiration and someone who has made and is continuing to make a positive impact in so many people's lives. Carly and her story truly are a gift to this world.

With that said, Carly launched her first book, Good Enough, a little over a year or so ago. I highly recommend that you read it. She also recently launched the audiobook version of Good Enough. So Carly, before we hop into talking about the Enneagram and food, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your book.

Carly: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And of course, I'm just so excited for you. And yeah, it's a beautiful introduction. And I can't say enough good things about you too.

Annie: You're so kind.

Carly: And it's, you know, it's fun to think about, not fun, but like it is ironic that when we met, we both were struggling and didn't know it. And I feel like we have been able to grow closer like as we both got comfortable being more vulnerable about our struggles.

So I'm super, yeah, super excited to be here. I did publish my book Good Enough about a little over a year ago, like you said, and just launched the audiobook about a month ago. And then probably about six months ago, launched the hardback cover or the hardback version. So it's been a really long journey.

But Good Enough is a memoir of my experiences going through an eating disorder and recovering. I talk about all that related and impacted my eating disorder, like childhood trauma, diet culture, comparison. I talk about monsters in my head. And that's something that I'm sure we'll get into more as we talk about Enneagram Ones and the very loud inner critic or many inner critics that they have.

But yeah, it is basically just a very vulnerable track into my story, but also an invitation for other people who are wanting to learn more about eating disorders or who are on their journey of recovery.

It's just a book to basically let people know like, hey, you're not alone, like your mental health struggles, even if you struggle with something completely different than an eating disorder are unique, they're important. And you have like a friend to walk with you through those struggles.

And that's really what I hope to be for all my readers. I tie in some of my face I tie in journal entries from my past to sort of emphasize points I make or messages I give.

And what I've heard from other people is that they have to take good enough in very bite sized chunks, because it is a very confrontational read. It's very vulnerable. And that's exactly what I wanted it to be.

Because vulnerability has been a big lesson for me, but a very important one. And it's writing the book truly did help me heal a lot myself. So yeah, that's available and ebook paperback hardback hardback and audiobook formats on Amazon through Barnes and Noble, and then through my personal website if anyone wants to find coffee.

Annie: Awesome. Yeah, I'm seriously so impressed that you went through that whole process like writing a book is not an easy feat at all and to do everything you did in such a short period of time is seriously so impressive.

But one of the things you said about all of the different facets you kind of pulled into your book is one of the things I find to be very unique and helpful about your book and then what I find to be really beautiful about it is like you said you want it to help people.

You're not just telling your story to tell your story. You're telling it in such a way that people have to read it in small chunks because it's producing change within individual lives. And I know when I read it personally, and I've been on my own recovery journey for years, and I had to take it in chunks as well.

I was just like, Whoa, there's a lot here. And even things like me knowing you personally there's like things I was like, I did not know like, but it was so relatable. And that's what I love about it.

Carly: Yeah, I will be honest and say like I had to write it in small chunks to like it. Yeah, it was there were certain portions of a book where it was like, okay, this is bringing up a lot for me. And it's like I'm being triggered by my own words.

And I need to like, step away and take a break and do something else for a little while and then like, there would be times where I wouldn't come back to a certain section for like a week because I was just like, I had to prep myself for it.

But I imagine that that's what a lot of, you know, authors who write memoirs go through is just, yeah, having to sort of choose to write portions of the book at the right time and and honor, honor, whatever needs you have throughout the process.

Annie: Yeah, because you're unpacking a lot of things, things that have probably been shoved away for a while. And yeah, having to reface that.

Carly: Yeah, you might even like experience that too, like with your podcasts, I'm sure like as you start talking about certain events from your past, like, I think any, any creator has to, if they're sharing personal stories, just have to be careful and not like lose themselves in the process.

Annie: Yeah, definitely. That is a really great piece of advice for me and any other creatives out there as well. Awesome. Well, everyone, I highly, again, highly recommend Good Enough. So definitely check it out. Carly listed all the places that you can find it.

I occasionally share her posts and stuff so you'll be able to find her account through my account very easily.

But we'll go ahead and get started. As I mentioned earlier in the episode, Carly is an Enneagram type one. Enneagram type ones are known by a multitude of names, including the perfectionist, the reformer and the idealist. Enneagram type ones are also described as principled, purposeful and rational in their behaviors and their decisions. The core desire of a type one is to be or do good and the core fear is of being evil or falling short of expectations. Like all nine types, Enneagram ones have their strengths as well as their weaknesses, but rather than sitting here and providing you some textbook explanation of Enneagram type one, we have a type one here.

So I'd like to give you a chance to describe your experience with living in this world as a type one, Carly. So we won't hop into the relationship with food piece just yet, but how would you describe your overall experience as a type one?

Carly: Exhausting.

Annie: One word. Exhausting.

Carly: No, but it is like as a type one, to do good and to have that core desire means that you put a lot of pressure on your shoulders and hold yourself to a really high standard, higher than anyone else holds you to.

And that is what it feels like to be a one is to place really high expectations on myself and to, as I mentioned earlier, deal with a really loud inner critic, sometimes many, which is what I refer to as monsters in my head.

But to have these little monsters, I always imagine them just like sitting on my shoulders and just telling me, you know, oh, you should be doing this or like, you know, it's more than just a core desire to do good, but it's a desire to be right and to live in accordance with your values and to the best of your ability.

And that makes it hard for times when like you're struggling mentally or you're just not having a good day and your body might be telling you like, I need rest right now.

So I'm sure many ones will relate when I say that like, rest does not come easy as a one because we know what we're capable of and we're constantly pushing ourselves to be better.

A lot of people call us the self improvement nerd to just like, you talk about self improvement, like I'll talk about it for like a week straight with you.

Like, let's do it.

We're all about like, we're all about like goals, making lists. At least I am like I'm very organized. I thrive most in like a clean environment. And I pay super close attention to detail so much so that sometimes that leads to overthinking and ruminating on things.

But with any number, you know, like your weaknesses are also your strengths.

And I think that that's something to remember like as you approach your Enneagram number that like, yeah, it's scary, it's hard to admit certain things about yourself, but also remembering like the things that like you struggle with.

There is also a healthy balance but like make those things really great assets to who you are and like what you have to offer.

I'd say that's mainly what I deal with on a daily basis is like overthinking, holding myself to a really high standard and struggling to rest and honor my body's needs and my mind's needs versus being productive all the time.

I like to tell people like, I can accomplish what most people would take them like a week or month to accomplish. I'll accomplish it in a day and still feel like I did not do enough.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, because you have these just extremely high expectations and it's like, no, I'm more productive than that. I could have done more. Yeah.

Carly: Yeah, sometimes my partner will be like, what's wrong?

And like I'll tell him like I just feel like I didn't get anything done that I wanted to get done today. And he's he'll just look at me like with these crazy eyes like, are you kidding like you did so much and so he'll actually make me like repeat to back to him like, okay, tell me everything you did get done today.

And I'll like repeat it back to him and I'm like, wow, like that is so like that is so much when I say it out loud but like just thinking about all the things I didn't get done.

Yeah, it's easy to spiral.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, well that's good that you have him as a support to help you remember all the things you have done, and also probably to that achieving things or doing things getting tasks done isn't even your worth.

But like when you have that monster in your head or the on your shoulder, how you picture it telling you that you could have done more done better that's like so hard to fight on your own. And sometimes you need that outside perspective.

I really like how you said earlier, I was actually going to bring it up that. Your weaknesses are also your strengths, because I think that's so true as a type one someone who really wants to do right in be right. And that can play out in a lot of really positive ways of like seeking justice and using it for a lot of really positive things I mean I see that in your work as an anti-diet advocate and against weight stigma and all of those things.

But then when it's flipped on to you and you have all those expectations on you that can be quite crippling.

Carly: For sure. Yeah, that's a great point we. Yeah, we do mean well and even even when we're hard on the people we love, we mean well and we just want.

We are like, I have a nine wing so I'm also sort of like a peacemaker. And that's really what we're after is just like, we want everyone to be well and right and like good in the world and we're trying to do our part but sometimes we, we fail to do it in like the most healthy way.

Annie: Yeah, which happens with all types you know you have the levels of health and we're all at different, different stages at different points.

Um, so as you mentioned on your Instagram and in other places I'm sure you're what like four years into recovery now.

Carly: Yeah

Annie: Okay, awesome. And there have obviously been a lot of changes that you have experienced over the past few years regarding your relationship with food and body image, but looking back at all the years in which you did struggle with food and you did struggle with body image, how would you have described your relationship with food, maybe like five years ago, and in what ways do you feel as though your type one personality played a role in some of those struggles.

Carly: Yeah, that's a great question.

Well, my relationship with food and my body was very obsessive during my eating disorder, when I was struggling.

I felt a lot with body dysmorphia so you know looking in the mirror perceiving flaws that weren't actually there or ruminating on parts of my body so much that I actually started to imagine, for instance, like my right calf being bigger than my left calf like really silly things where it's like, no one else is recognizing that but I would stare at myself for so long in the mirror, morning, noon and night, and would weigh myself multiple times a day.

That, you know, it took up really all of my energy and capacity. I was so obsessed with putting like knowing what I was putting into my body with calorie counting with writing down like what I ate every day and trying to analyze like how I could be or like how I could reach like whatever number or made up goal I had in my head more efficiently by like, you know, googling, which is horrible. Never Google weight loss tips or anything.

Annie: It's all horrible.

Carly: So yeah, but it was very, very obsessive so toxic to my overall well being that, you know, there'd be times where I would cancel plans with my friends because I was, it was more worth it to me to know that like, I could stay in my safe zone and eat my safe foods and not have to be challenged by my friends or peers to, you know, go and get frozen yogurt spontaneously. Like I didn't want to have to expend the energy to like make up an excuse as to why I couldn't do that. It was easier for me to isolate myself and to, even though I was super lonely to be alone because I wanted to stay within my very strict box of rules.

That box does not have any room for spontaneity as you know.

Annie: Zero room, yeah.

Carly: No, and especially as a one.

We do when we commit to things because we are so type A and driven, we commit like 150% like we just go so all in that it's like you burn yourself out and I was talking to a friend recently and was telling them like during my eating disorder I ate so many hummus and carrots.

Like, I think of hummus and carrots now and I just like want to gag because I'm like, oh yeah, oh, like I just overdid it, you know.

Annie: I have foods like that too. Zucchini is mine. I'm like, oh, that's disgusting.

I ate way too many.

Carly: But I do keep trying because I'm like, you know, I used to love that snack but like it's like, there's a certain thing but it's like you just, you overdid it like, dang it, you overdid it again.

And I do that with still like, you know, just simple things. It's like, I did it with the Enneagram actually like when I was trying to find out my number, this will tell you even more about a one but I thought I was a four for like a year.

And I was, fours are like very emotional. They're, they love melancholy like they thrive.

And I was just like, you know, thought I was a four. Well, one, go to a four in times of unhealth or in times of stress. So, but I thought like, no, I don't just go to a four in times of unhealth or stress like I am always a four.

But this was a period when like I wasn't well mentally and I can look back and realize like no wonder I resonated so much with before like I was going through an eating disorder.

Annie: Yeah, you were in a time of stress.

Carly: Yeah, but with the Enneagram like I eventually after like a year of thinking I was a four I was like okay I'm gonna like dive in and do some like more research and try and learn more about myself.

This is during my recovery. And I started learning about a one and I was like, hmm, like this is really starting to resonate especially when it comes to like student exercise and body image.

And I would, I was so obsessed but like, I was listening to a podcast every time I got in my car on like either a one or a four. And it was like a 10 minute drive, I'd like get to my destination and I would just like sit in my car and like be taking notes on my phone.

And I was like, it was driving me nuts but I could not pinpoint my number and I was like, I have to find out if I'm like a four or one like I have to know that I can improve.

And it was just this whole thing and like, I stepped back one night and I was like, I am obsessing over this like my, someone really came into my apartment and been like this crazy, this lady is crazy like I had like notepads full of like, versus ones and like books and, and I, and I was like, I like this is what a one would do. Like, I am taking this to the extreme.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, and spreadsheets.

Carly: All in a goal to be right and like, you know, but I can improve. I'm like, you're a one. Like, just look at what you're doing.

Yeah, but, you know, taking things to the extreme really relate to what happened during my eating disorder like taking healthy things like eating healthy and moving your body and, you know, treating yourself to yummy foods I did all of those things but I took them to the extreme to where I got caught in a restrict binge and purge cycle.

So, yeah, it's, you know, a lot of people, it's hard, even for my partner to know like how do I help. How to help me as a recovered individual like when I still struggle because like we all struggle even when we're, we're well and recovered.

But knowing like, you know, how do I, how do I help them when it's like what my problem was was actually healthy thing that I just took too far.

So, it's, it's confusing I think for both the individual who's struggling because they're like, wait, I'm doing something healthy. Yeah. And then also the people who want to help that person, they're like, okay, I don't know what to do here.

Annie: Yeah, yeah. Well, especially because they're like, yeah, you're are doing some things healthy but you're just doing it very intensely. And like, it crosses that line into unhealth, but it's so hard when you're in the middle of it to see that it's too intense, and that it's obsessive because you're like, I'm caring for my body, you were a runner. So you were running, you're eating healthy foods, hummus and carrots, nothing wrong with that. But you know, if you're eating hummus and carrots, because you're terrified of other foods, then maybe there's a problem there.

But it's so hard to see that especially when your tendency is to go hard on things like that. Yeah.

Carly: Yeah, and, you know, it never helps when, and I'm, I'm sure that you can relate to this, but it never helps when people tell you that like you're, what you're doing is healthy, when they tell you like, you look so good, like, you know, you're like, you're so healthy, like, teach me your ways.

And you're like, ooh, like, I am healthy, like what, you know, I must be doing something right. Yeah, yeah, but it's like, oh, they were like, and, you know, not from a, not with bad intentions, but they were unintentionally reinforcing those behaviors during that time, which bear you deeper in disordered eating in the, in the long run.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's like they're those well-intentioned compliments, but they don't know what's going on behind the scenes, especially if you are also isolating yourself, which is a very common thing in eating disorders is isolation.

Eating disorders happen in the closet. Usually people don't know about it, but it's so much easier for people to say these well-intentioned compliments and not really know what's going on behind the scenes and the impact that those quote compliments could have.

Carly: Yeah, right. Yeah, it's, it's hard, but that doesn't mean that it's, it's not possible to, to move out of it. And, you know, now I have a, I have a way healthier relationship with, you know, both food and exercise, which I'm sure we'll get into.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely get into that. That's where the transformation happens and all the backstory now. So can you think of a time in your life when you believed, we kind of talked about this a little bit, but believed in the superiority of a specific diet or a specific pattern of eating. And if yes, what were those diets slash patterns of eating and what was that experience like?

Carly: Yeah. Well, you know, some of the main things that are ways of eating that I was convinced were best were to stay away from red meat, to avoid sugar, to avoid dairy. I was told things from media, from the internet to not drink my calories.

So that meant like no juice, like no, no beverage other than water, which I drank way too much of. I didn't know you could drink too much water, but I drank so much that it was like, almost like, you know, could have put me in the hospital.

Annie: Yeah, electrolyte imbalances and stuff.

Carly: Yeah, like, not another thing. I just took the extreme. I'm like, oh, I need to drink more water. Okay, we're just going to overdo it. Like, yeah. Like four gallons. Yeah, yeah. I, I got I jumped into some of the fad diets there for a while when I was in college. I especially since I was cooking for myself and was grocery shopping, like I was able to try new things.

So I was vegan for a tiny bit. I was vegetarian. I was pescatarian. And, you know, some of those attempts were in an effort to like be more sustainable and to like be an advocate of the environment. And then other attempts were like, what's the healthiest way I can eat and like still get away with like, you know, what are the what are loopholes?

And to actually like to actually enjoy things that I like, but also stay safe.

Annie: Yeah, yeah. That's one thing I've talked about on my Instagram before about those like restrictive diets and how, especially for people who have a history of eating disorders, how things like vegan or vegetarian or paleo, whatever those, whatever it is, where there may be valid reasons to do that sustainability or animal rights, all these things end up just being the safety net because it's like way more socially acceptable to not eat pizza that has cheese on it because you're a vegan versus because it gives you a heart attack. Like that's a little less socially acceptable. But if you can say, oh, I'm vegan, it's this easy excuse to not eat that food.

Carly: Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah. And if you are going through an eating disorder, like, it's so easy to even convince yourself like that you're doing something for x, y, and z reason when it's like, oh, you're actually doing it because you're, you have these deep rooted fears or lies that you're carrying with you, that you're trying to like protect yourself from.

But yeah, yeah, we can just as much as we convince others, like we we convince ourselves to and that's what I think is, is scary and only contributes to like the denial. But something else I thought of that sort of I guess relates to being a one is I had this really weird phobia with food during my eating disorder, where I, in addition to like avoiding, you know, sugar and bread and all those things, I was super terrified of like repeating the same color of food in a day. So like carrots and sweet potato and the same day like off limits.

In addition to that, I was super terrified of repeating flavors, which meant like if I had like peanut butter with an apple like for breakfast or whatever, like I wouldn't have like a peanut butter flavored granola bar in the afternoon, like I have these weird rules.

But it was like, you can't repeat colors. You can't have two of the same color of foods on your plate. And you can't repeat flavors. Like I had to have this healthy separation between all of those things in my head based out like planned days in advance.

And yeah, that's, that's something sometimes like, you know, still pops up where I'm like, I'll be having yeah, like, like peanut butter later in the day. And I'm like, oh, you know, I had peanut butter in my oatmeal this morning. Like, that's funny. It's funny that like I used to be afraid to do that. And here I am like, right now. It's just like one of those aha moments where you're like, wow, like you've come so far. Like, look at you eating peanut butter two times in a day.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, it makes you appreciate those little moments. But that sounds so overwhelming to have all of those rules in your head to and be constantly trying to remember all those things. Did you ever figure out what was the source of those little rules?

Carly: Honestly, I think it like I'm not officially diagnosed with OCD. But like, I think a lot of that was just like, obsessive, compulsive, like symptoms. Yeah. Because like, I have little weird things I do still that like don't even relate to food. Okay.

But I think it was more of like, you know, the way things looked in my head, and like how they looked on my plate. Yeah. Where I, yeah, just that combined with like perfectionism, I think just made for a very interesting phobia, which like my mom, my mom like did not understand like, you know, who is something like super strange.

But she, you know, I get like, legit mad at her when she like put broccoli on my plate. And it's like, I had broccoli for lunch. Like, how dare you?

Annie: It's the worst thing she could do.

Carly: Yeah, like, it didn't even matter if it was healthy or unhealthy. Like, I, yeah, I just struggled with it. To the point where I would like, I'd cry sometimes I just like I'd walk away from the dinner table, I wouldn't eat because I couldn't believe but like, why would you you know, why would you put cheese on these burritos? I'm like, I had cheese early in the day, like you do that.

But I had a lot of things like that but like, especially when other people were cooking for me like I didn't care if I hurt people's feelings like it was worth it to me again to like stay in my safe zone and not deal with the consequences and like punishment that came after.

Annie: Yeah, yeah. That, that definitely sounds extremely difficult and like a lot of emotion in that as well but so glad you're on the other side of that now where you can look back and kind of laugh about it because obviously you weren't laughing about it then.

It made complete sense to you then. But now that you're on the other side of your eating disorder you're like, hmm, that was a weird little quirk there.

Carly: Right.

Annie: This is interesting, but at least you know some some idea makes sense if you have some OCD tendencies and other areas of life like why that would appear in your food as well. Yeah.

Carly: Yeah, for sure.

Annie: Yeah, did you have anything else to add to that question.

Carly: Yeah, I don't think so. Just, yeah, lots of obsessive tendencies and the planning and jumping on fad diet bandwagons and yeah. Oh yeah.

Annie: It's so hard because society promotes like all those diets that you were talking about and all those lifestyles they tell you that that's what you should be doing.

Carly: So yeah, yeah we I had a friend recently who was like telling me that him and his wife are doing the paleo diet and that it's actually like, you know, really, it's really not that hard and like it still allows room for cheat days and like even that language I'm like,

Oh, like you're treating diet culture and I just like want to go cover up with a blanket.

Annie: Right. And it's so interesting when your eyes are open to diet culture and the toxicity, and just how it's everywhere. It's so hard to unsee it. And when you do it, it's like, oh, that is just so horrible like why is everyone falling into that.

But it's very different once your eyes have been open to it versus someone who isn't maybe aware of the dangers of diet culture and all of that.

Carly: For sure. Yeah. And even if they're not like, even if they don't struggle with disordered eating like the impact that maybe their actions will have on those who do.

Annie: Yeah, exactly.

Carly: Yeah.

Annie: Cool. So this question kind of goes in line with that concept or the whole idea of eating healthy eating clean concept, but in what ways did labeling foods as good and bad impact your relationship with food.

Carly: Yeah, I mean, the question, like, that's the question I think is like, what even is good or bad like that and that's the question you have to ask yourself like during recovery is, is like, why, why do I view this like, why do I think that bread is bad for me, like, why, where, where have I adopted that lie. And, you know, for me, a lot of that came from, like, false like fake news.

Also, like, you know, when I first started my Instagram, which used to be believing beautiful. Now it's sincerely Carly. But when I first started the account, it was Carly's counter. And it was when I just started living on my own in a studio apartment in downtown Portland, and it was actually when I met you.

Yeah, I was cooking for myself a lot more and I'd make like these really beautiful like healthy meals, or you know what I what I thought was healthy at the time. And I'd sit down and eat them alone and I was like, oh, like I want to share these with people like I'm so healthy you like I want to like share all my tips with people.

Yeah, so I created this Instagram account where I was like, I'm going to like teach people how to be healthy because I'm like the healthiest person ever.

Annie: Yeah, I remember that account. You did make some really like beautiful looking like it was very aesthetic.

Carly: There are still some there like I still beat down on my Instagram there are like a lot of it's pretty much all food pictures and I fully been like deleting some of them.

But yeah, like I did I did make some good things and even like when I was in my recovery and I was like, you know, eating a lot more of like the nutrients that I needed for my health and energy.

Yeah, like I enjoyed sharing those things and I still do from time to time but when I first started it was like, it came from a very prideful place of like, and a place of denial still where I didn't think I had a problem and I just thought I was like super healthy.

But I started following like other fitness influencers and healthy healthy eating experts or whatever they want to call themselves. Yeah, which really a lot of them were struggling with an eating disorder.

Annie: Just passing on the eating disorder to everyone else.

Carly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, it's so toxic. But honestly, that's like where a lot of my skewed views of like good and bad food came from was following these people who I, you know, didn't have any qualifications or a lot of them didn't.

But I compared myself to them and it was like this competitive game of like, who can be healthier and like, you can like eat the cleanest, which I hate the term clean eating now.

That's another cringe worthy term. Please don't use it around me.

Annie: I used to use it all the time and I'm right there with you. I hate it so much.

Carly: Yeah, I used to, I think in my bio it said like clean eater or like something like that. Which, yeah, it's, I can look back and like laugh and like have compassion on that version of myself.

But at the time, like, yeah, it was, it was very hard to see the flaws in what I was doing, or the flaws and what other people were doing. But it did create this, it just what it did was it created more rules for me of like, oh, I, yeah, like I can't, I can't drink my calories. Even if I enjoy, even if I enjoy this juice, like I can't drink it because then that makes me unhealthy. And it's just these lies that get so twisted, like you don't even realize their lives anymore.

And it makes you judgmental of like yourself and of other people. And it also puts you out of touch with your intuition, like what you actually enjoy. Like I love bagels and cream cheese. I love them so much.

Annie: Yes, they're so good.

Carly: Like I, every time I go to the store, I buy bagels and cream cheese now. And like, I love like different cereal that I used to eat as a kid. Like I love Captain Crunch. I'm on a Captain Crunch kick right now.

And like I've been challenging, challenging myself, like every time I go to the store to like, I'll get a different cereal that like I used to eat as a kid, but like during my eating disorder, I stopped eating completely. Because I thought it was like immature and like bad.

And so, yeah, I was gonna say like there are a lot of foods I neglected thinking like these things are bad for me. And when I started intuitive eating, which like, I know we'll talk about later, but it opened this really beautiful door of like, all these foods where it's so fun to like go to the grocery store.

And now it's fun to, when I'm hungry, be like, oh, like, there's no rules. Like I can, you know, whatever I'm craving. I want a bagel and cream cheese. Yesterday, I made like a wrap that had peanut butter, jelly and banana. And I just like rolled it up. And it was close to dinner time. And I was like, who cares? Like I want this to sound good.

Annie: Yeah. So it's so great. It's fun now. But like, yeah, the good and bad labels that so many people get food and it's really become just common language anywhere now. Yeah, it's, it's destructive to people who are going through an eating disorder or who are struggling with disordered eating and it only contributes to that list that you have in your head or some people probably even have it written down of what foods are off limits and and what are the safe foods and that list as you get further down the rabbit hole like that list gets of safe foods get smaller and smaller and smaller.

Carly: Yeah, it really does.

Annie: That is a really great point that usually eating disorders or disordered eating it starts out as just a few little things and it just slowly becomes more and more and more.

And then you get to a point like you're explaining where all of your decisions are based out of fear, rather than what your body's asking for or what you're desiring.

But when you lift off those labels of good and bad and realize that food is just food like I was in the same boat as you so I totally get it. When you lift off those labels, though, there's such freedom to be able to actually listen to your body and make those choices.

Obviously, it's not that simple of a process.

But yeah, I think in your book when you were talking about like being able to eat whatever you want. I think you mentioned something when you were living in Australia, how somebody opened up the freezer and just like took a bite of ice cream.

And you're like, wait, you can do that. That's allowed.

It's just like little things like that. An eating disorder would never let you do, ever.

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. And like in that moment my eating disorder is like, no, you can't do that. Like you can't. No, you can't. Like stop. Look away.

Annie: She's doing something horrible.

Carly: Yeah, at least she's doing it. Why can't she do it and I can't.

Yeah, but it's random things like, you know, that you just, you write off when you're struggling. But then, yeah, the intuitive eating, it does open that door of like, wow, like, I could have ice cream whenever I want it.

And the thing that you learn too, like at first, you can, you do feel, or at least I felt out of control at first. I felt overwhelmed with all the choice.

Because it went from like, these are the only foods I eat to like, you can eat anything. And that can be really scary, I think, for someone who's like been living in a restricted world for so long.

But, yeah, you do start to, I think, get more comfortable with it. And you find that like, wow, like, I'm not, at least during my eating disorder, like, I was always thinking about food. Like, I don't think I had room to think about anything else. And I used to joke with people and be like, I don't have an eating disorder. Like, I'm obsessed with food. Like, I love food so much.

And now, like, I was thinking about food all the time, because I was starving all the time. Like, I was not giving my body the fuel it needed. Like, I, you know, now when I get hangry, like, it's not fun. And I'm like, wow, I was living in that world for like, you know, I feel sorry for all the people who had to be around me.

Annie: Right, you have to like backtrack and apologize for your behavior that was years and years ago.

Sorry, I was just hungry.

Carly: But, yeah, I don't know where we're going with that. But for those who are like wanting to intuitively eat, like, I think it's important to validate, like, the overwhelm, the fear that happens at first, but also, like, as you stay on that path, like, your thinking of food all the time, like that does, at least I found start to decrease, like, your super intense cravings that sometimes might lead to, like, binges.

Like, that goes away. Like, you start to find, like, oh, when I give my body what it wants, when it's asking for something specific, like, I'm not, like, I don't feel out of control so much around food.

Annie: And, yeah, it's so freeing and fun. Like, food should be fun. It should be an experience. It should not be, like, anxiety-ridden events.

Carly: Like, yeah, I worked in residential treatment for a little bit, and that was also super rewarding every time when a client would decide to get seconds for the first time. And they'd, like, feel powerful. Like, you just feel powerful when you're like, you know what, eating disorder, like, I'm not going to listen to you. My body wants seconds.

Or, you know, I want some of the optional dessert tonight or whatever. Like, it's such a good feeling. Like, it's just a, it's like putting a middle finger to your eating disorder.

Annie: Right? Yeah, which feels so great. And you're right. It's such a brave step that people don't even understand how much, like, strength and bravery that takes to get seconds when that's something that your mind is screaming at you.

No, do not get seconds. This is a horrible idea. And it's probably going to scream at you a little bit afterwards as well. But the more that you can do that and the more that you can stick that middle finger at your eating disorder, the easier it becomes.

But I think that's a really great point that you validated the kind of chaos and lack of control that people feel when first releasing those food rules or trying to release those food rules. Because that's often what scares people away from continually pursuing recovery or pursuing intuitive eating is it's like, okay, I can't do this. I'm out of control because control has always been what people have been seeking.

When it's like, really, we want connection, not control. So when you feel out of control, then it's like you feel like you're doing something wrong or something bad or that you cannot possibly recover. But it's just part of the journey.

Carly: Right. And for all the ones out there too, because we value and seek after control so much, something that has always helped me at least since my recovery journey was remembering that I don't actually have control, but instead it's an illusion of control.

It's this false illusion of control and just reminding yourself that even though I think this is bringing me peace and is something that I can navigate and have this strong grip on, it's actually just an illusion. It's made up. I don't actually have control over anything.

Annie: Yeah, that's so good. Yeah.

Carly: Yeah, it's also scary, but terrifying. Yeah, especially for a type one. So yeah, I'm very seeking that control. That's absolutely terrifying.

Today my therapist, I had therapy before this, she said, what do you have control over? And I said, nothing. Absolutely nothing. I was like nothing and I was just like laughing and she's just like, oh my gosh, this is great.

Annie: She's like progress. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. I think that's a good note to leave that question on. I feel like we could probably talk for like three hours.

Carly: I know.

Annie: Yeah, we'll go to the next one. So something that I have found to play a large role in our relationships with food, especially when working with clients, is the ways in which food was experienced and talked about as a child.

You know, our families and our family of origin, they have a huge impact on our lives overall. And I know this is something that you talk about quite a bit in your book. So, can you spend a little bit of time discussing how food was experienced or talked about in your childhood?

Carly: Yeah, so for those who don't know, my parents divorced when I was eight years old. So I guess my experiences of food changed, obviously, in that transition. But when my parents were still together, you know, I don't really have any memories of sitting around the table as a family.

And maybe that's just trauma doing its job.

But my most vivid memories are my mom in the kitchen cooking and my brother and I would sit at our barstools. I have one full-blood sibling, two half-siblings that came into the picture as I got older.

But my brother and I would be sitting at our barstools across from the kitchen, and my dad would be behind us sitting on the couch, which was next to the TV. And he'd be eating his dinner, watching TV. My brother and I had to have our backs face the TV and him. And we were told to focus on our food. We'd get in trouble if we looked at the TV, even though that's so tempting as a kid.

There's a TV screen on and you're just like, you have to face the other direction. Even as an adult, that's hard. But we'd get in trouble if we weren't focusing on our food. I never really remember my mom even sitting down. I just remember her cleaning up the kitchen as we ate, and she'd sneak bites here and there.

But I was a really picky kid. I had a lot of foods I didn't like. I liked ketchup on pretty much everything, I think. But I liked very plain foods. So whenever I didn't like someone, I'd have a lot of anxiety because my dad was very strict.

I had a lot of anxiety of speaking up and being like, I don't like this, or I can't eat the rest of this, or whatever it was. And the times when I did, or the times when even my dad just noticed me sitting quietly in a panic in front of my plate, he instead of doing what I hope to do as a parent, which is get curious and ask my child, what's coming up for you? Or what are you thinking about? He would yell at us and be like, why aren't you eating your food? You need to finish the food on your plate.

It was like a sin to not finish our food. I would sit at the table at my bar school sometimes for hours, because I couldn't bring myself to finish my green beans or whatever it was. My mom was a lot more gentle in that way.

She'd do things that a lot of parents do where it's like, just finish eating your meat, or take three more bites and then we'll reassess, or at least try a bite of this. And when it got to the point where it's like, okay, she's still not going to eat, my mom would be like, well, I'll make you PB&J, or let me make you something else. And then it would be like a war between her and my dad of like, you can't cave like that. She needs to eat her food. And my mom would be like, she doesn't want to eat her food. And then as a kid, you're just sitting there even more anxious.

So it created a lot of stress. As a kid, it created a lot of fear about doing what I felt was best for me. And there was a lot of punishment involved, way more punishment than reward. Even going to the grocery store, I would go with my dad every weekend while my mom and my brother slept in, and I would get a talking to before we went in the store of like, do not ask for anything, we're not getting anything off of the list.

Annie: And there wasn't ever any like, questions of like, you know, what do you want? Or like, how about you pick out this?

Carly: It was just like, this is what we're getting. And a lot of it had to do with, you know, we weren't, we weren't like poor, but my dad still was, you know, very much a penny pincher in the way that like, he was all about deals. And he still is like, he wields the field cars like he is all about the savings. And I'm just like, yeah, the opposite now.

But when, when my, when my younger siblings got to be to the age where they could feed themselves, they were still babies, but they were able to use their spoon and fork or whatever. And I was living with my mom as I got older. They're 13 and 14 now. But when they were small kids, I remember sitting at the table and when they wouldn't eat their food, I was doing exactly what my dad did to me. And my mom would, my mom would like want to give them something else or she wouldn't make them finish their dinner. And I would freak out. Like I was, I just like repeating my dad what he modeled for me, which was like, that's not OK.

Like you have to eat your food. Like I had to eat my food when I was a kid.

Annie: Yeah. It's a learned behavior.

Carly: Yeah. Yeah. Where you're like, wow, you know, you're so ungrateful. Like I just thought my brother and sister were so ungrateful and like they spoiled their dinner because they had crackers earlier in the day or whatever it was. And yeah, it was a learned behavior that like I had to break out of. And a big part of my recovery was like erasing the punishment to come from eating what I thought was too much or eating something that I labeled off limits in my head.

Because I there was a lot of both reward and punishment in my eating disorder days, but mainly punishment of like this is the cost for like what you just ate or what you didn't eat or whatever. Yeah. So yeah, that that was took up consumed a lot of like my childhood and really is the only thing I remember about food as a kid.

And as I got older, my dad got full custody of my older brother and I. My mom was in the picture for a little bit, which I talk about in the book. Food became really inconsistent. And yeah, my dad bought a barn shortly after the divorce, wasn't home a lot. And he made what he wanted to make what he felt in the mood for and never really took into consideration what we wanted or felt in the mood for. So, so that that was difficult too.

Annie: Yeah, it sounds like food was very much a source of stress growing up, whether it was because you're being forced to eat something you don't want to eat, or because of inconsistencies or because of arguing between your parents about you not eating your food. It's like a child takes that blame on themselves for that argument. It's like food was just very much the center of all this stress for you. And at the same time, it was also something that only external forces got to decide for you. Like you said, you didn't learn to trust your body and trust that your body could tell you what what it wanted and how much to eat, when to eat, what to eat, all those things. Because it was either your parents deciding it or some other external force.

Carly: Right. Yeah. And, and when I did get to an age of like being in high school and having my license and being able to have more freedom as to what I ate.

That was also really scary and like unknown territory because I, I was able to like, I could lie to my dad and tell him like, you know, I ate at my friend's house, even when I didn't, because, like, I had more freedom or when I started, I lived with my grandma, my grandparents for a short time in high school and like, I go to the store with them and my grandma did start asking me like, what do you want?

Or like, you know, why don't you pick out some stuff for your lunches? And the old me, I like, I just felt like someone had just taken off my training wheels, but I was still not ready to like ride my bike. And I was just all over the place of like, I don't know what direction to go.

Annie: Yeah.

Carly: You know, and I think that that's where like disordered behaviors made me feel so safe because they did give me that control of like, okay, instead of like focusing on all these choices, I'm going to focus on like these four, four options of cereal that like I've labeled as like the healthiest and like safe to eat.

So I think that when you do so from a place of like, having no choice, like having all the choices, like disorder eating does make you feel safe in that way. And, and it definitely helps to some of my indecision, but I've obviously found a lot healthier ways now to deal with indecision that like is very common when you go to the grocery store and there are like a thousand kinds of the same thing.

Annie: So many options at grocery stores, but you're so right that like the eating disorder gives you a level of certainty and structure. And when you're used to having that structure with food, not necessarily because you set the structure. It's just what your parents decided for you or whatever. How finding some other source of structure is feel safe. It feels comfortable. It feels known and it feels a lot less scary than trying to make a decision out of a million different options.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense on this next question. We've talked about quite a bit so I don't know if you'll have a lot to add to it, but specifically, we've kind of talked about good and bad those types of themes as well as the expectations you have as a type one. And so how have you? Well, for one, how do the standards you set for your eating patterns relate to the standards you set for yourself? And then in the past, how have you judged yourself when you have not met those standards?

Carly: Yeah. Well, I think that the standards that I set for myself definitely kept me, like I said, in that really small box of not having a lot of intuition or freedom.

But now what I think of is how I've had to adopt new healthy coping strategies and there are still times when I eat poorer than I think I should or when diet culture gets the best of me and I feel guilty the next day or something that really triggers intrusive thoughts.

Like would I get a belly ache after eating? And yeah, because I still have those expectations deep down. I think, you know, it's a misconception to think that I think I believe at least it's a misconception to think that you ever fully recover.

I think that you reach a point of not being triggered to like act on past behaviors and you adopt healthier coping strategies, but to think that like the eating disorder voice goes away completely forever and ever like to me, that's a fairy tale because that voice still comes in and I have a conversation with it now and I'm like, listen here, buddy. You get out of here.

Annie: Yeah, yeah. And that's something so good to tell people about because a lot of people have the expectation that it will never ever be a struggle again once you reach recovery. And that can one be disappointing because it doesn't go away and you feel like you haven't, you aren't recovered or also you're caught off guard like you let your guard down and then all of a sudden something triggers you and you weren't prepared for that and you weren't expecting that, hey, I still have to have these tools in my back pocket in case I ever need them in case a trigger ever comes up.

Carly: Yeah, right. Yeah. And when I went the facility that I worked at the residential eating disorder facility. That was the interview question of like, you know, how long have you been fully recovered and I was like, well, I don't believe in full recovery.

And it was a point where they're like, oh, well, what do you mean? And I blame myself that they're like, oh, well, we believe in full recovery here. And what I found in my time there was like, this is a damaging message to the clients here because they're getting this.

They're getting their hopes up that they are going to get to a place where like, they're ready to go home and some of them will have even like when I was working there would tell me like, I don't feel ready like I'm not fully recovered and I would remind them like, you're not going to reach a point of full recovery.

Now, like, you will reach a point where like, you, like, the things that you're learning in here are all setting you up to help you continue navigating this disorder and continue moving forward in your journey, but like, you're going to have that back.

And that's okay. But like, a lot of them would beat themselves up when they had setbacks or like, they'd say things like, oh, I thought I was fully recovered, but this happened. And it's like, well, stop doing it as like, there's like, as a finish line, because it's a journey.

It's a journey that you're on the rest of your life. And it does know there will be hopefully like, I haven't experienced it yet. But like, I'm sure there will be like years where like, my eating disorder is quiet.

And, but I found at least with stressful events or, you know, anxiety or depression, which are two things that I deal with, that when I'm struggling, sometimes the eating disorder voice gets louder, or when I used to hit milestones in my recovery, my eating disorder voice would get louder and I'd be like, what the heck, like, I'm making all this progress, like, what are you doing back?

Yeah, but it was like, it was a challenge where I had to like, make a decision in those moments of like, am I going to like listen to this disorder? Am I going to like, use these healthier coping devices that I have and, and assess.

And so that's really what I do now, like with high expectations that I place on myself, or stuff that comes up, like I was mentioning, I'm sorry, I'm still a little bit congested from my recent, but yeah, yeah, I'll be honest, it was COVID.

Annie: I ratted you out. I'm sorry. I saw it on Instagram.

Carly: But I had what I was going to say is like I had a recent experience for like I did have a stomachache. It was last week I woke up, I had ate, I drank and ate pizza and like had ice cream for dessert. And I just like woke up the next day just feeling like really bad about myself. And my eating disorder voice was super loud. And it told me like, you know, you shouldn't eat today.

And those, like, that was a moment where I had to be like, okay, well, first of all, no, we're not doing that. But I had the choice of like, how am I going to act on this? And I ended up telling my partner like, I'm having these thoughts, you know, I don't want to have them, but they're coming up.

I don't know why. But I need you to like hold me accountable today. And just like remind me that like, it's okay that I had pizza and ice cream last night. Like those are two delicious things that we should get to enjoy without like working for them.

But yeah, that's, I don't know if that answers the question.

Annie: Yeah, that totally answers it and gives us a lot more as well. I mean, but having that accountability is so important in recovery. Just everything you've been talking about here about like recovery being a journey, there's the same concept in healing from trauma that you're never reached a point of like healed from trauma.

It's like you're always healing like it does get easier. And you have periods of time where it's like, oh, this like feels a lot easier. And the same thing happens with eating disorder recovery. It's like you reach a point where it might be easier in some areas, but then a trigger happens and eating disorder behaviors are coping tools like they're how we cope with the stresses in our life. And so it makes sense that when something stressful happens, that that's triggered or when you feel discomfort in your body from digestive issues, that that's triggered. And then it's this just active defiance in that moment of being like, I'm going to do the opposite of what this voice is telling me to do, because that's probably the good thing to do is the opposite of what the voice is telling me to do. But like you're saying, I think it's really good for people who are in positions like us, where we've been on this recovery journey for a long period, to talk about how those voices still come up

Like for me, the wedding, people, most people know that I got married back in October. And, like leading up to the wedding, that was so triggering for me. Like it was just constant like trying to stay recovered. Because the messaging around weddings and how the bride needs to lose weight and just all of these ads like hitting me and I was like, oh my gosh, this is like way too much. That was kind of part of my hiatus from Instagram in the summer. But there's other reasons there.

But anyways, the point is that it is it's a journey. And it's important that we know what those expectations we have of ourselves are and how we judge ourselves when those we don't meet those expectations, because that will keep us from falling back into those old patterns.

Carly: Right, right. And for Enneagram ones too, I think that, especially if you're on the recovery journey to not beat yourself up when like that voice does come back up. And because we are idealists, like, I think we want to believe in like, I want to believe in like an end to recovery. But like, you know, and realistically, like I have heard people say like it takes four to seven years, that's a long time. And like, there's a huge variance in that. And so as like an Enneagram one who's on the recovery path, like, knowing that like, especially if you're like passionate about helping others like we are, knowing that like, you can still do that even if like, you're having intrusive thoughts sometimes because intrusive thoughts are not, they're, they're, they're okay. And it's, it's okay to struggle, like to think that we are just going to be like, at our peak all the time is super unrealistic. But it's also I know, like from experience, something that one struggle with is those unrealistic expectations. So hopefully, like those who are listening to our ones will find comfort in knowing that like, those thoughts still come up. And it doesn't take away from like your purpose or what you're doing or what you're passionate about.

Annie: Definitely. Yeah. And you just wrote a blog post about intrusive thoughts, didn't you?

Carly: Yeah

Annie: Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it'll be maybe a month after you've posted it by the time this airs. But people should definitely check that out if you had anything to add from that.

Carly: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm constantly I release like, at least two articles every week on medium. Maybe we can put the link in or something. But yeah, yeah, I post a lot of content related to overall well being. And sometimes I share some of my eating sort of experiences. But yeah, I'm, I'm a big writer, I'm constantly releasing new content. So if anyone's curious and hearing for learning more about any of that, that's a great place to look.

Annie: Yeah, tons of resources from Carly, no matter what Enneagram type you are, like, everybody can find help from it.

Carly: Yeah.

Annie: Awesome. Yeah, of course. So obviously, you've done a lot of work in your relationship with food, which, like we've discussed is such a difficult thing to do. So how would you describe your relationship with food today? And what specifically were the tools, mindset shifts, and behavior changes that helped you to get here?

Carly: Yeah, well, my relationship with food is, as I mentioned earlier, very intuitive. And I love it. It's fun. Yeah, and more fun.

Yeah. And I, yeah, I love to be that person in like my group of friends or in my family circle who there might be some people who are struggling with, with false messaging from diet culture or with the same ideal or whatever it might be. And I love to be that person to bring some truth to the table and be able to like set an example, even for like my younger sister who's in middle school now, which is like when a lot of my body image issue started.

But very intuitive, I eat what I want, when I want it. And I do it without shame or guilt, which is a lot different and opposite of how I used to live. Yeah, like all of my experiences with food revolved around guilt and shame. So that's been super freeing. And, you know, some of the things that have helped me get here and to be able to not focus so much of my energy on food and body and exercise all of the time have been therapy, number one.

Annie: Huge, huge.

Carly: I have been seeing a therapist for a long time. I have no intention to stop that connection anytime soon.

Annie: I feel that.

Carly: Yeah. And yeah, that's been huge vulnerability, as I mentioned is so important and has been a great learning, just experience through recovery and and since the start of recovery, but being able to, you know, tell my friends or people close to me, who I know have my best interest in mind, being able to tell them when I'm struggling, when I need accountability. I found that super, super useful.

Affirmations have helped me. I love affirmations and even just meditating on a mantra, being able to like ground myself in moments where I might be like spiraling through anxiety.

Annie: Yeah, very important to have grounding tools in those moments.

Carly: Yeah, yeah.

Annie: And no shame with those things either.

Carly: And yeah, lastly would be yoga has really helped me. I was telling my partner that every time I do yoga, there's like this new level of self compassion that I hold for myself and for my body and it's just I found at least on my mat, it's a great place to really show up and connect with myself and honor like what my body's asking for, not what like other people's bodies are asking of them, because as we know, like comparison is a huge thief and

I know for me, like, especially when I started my intuitive eating journey, it was hard to honor what my body needed from me when like one of my close friends was like doing what was best for them and maybe they stopped eating at a certain point because they were full or they decided not to get seconds, but still deciding in those moments like, okay, well I'm actually hungry, so I'm going to keep eating what's on my plate or I'm feeling like seconds because I really enjoyed the flavor of this field. So like, I'm going to go get seconds, even though you're not.

But that's also been helpful with like yoga, just being like, okay, my body is not in the mood for playing today. Like, we're just not going to do that, but like I'll hang out in child's pose, like I'll do what I need to do.

Such a great thing about yoga is the instructors always even if you do it with an instructor, but people who do the instructors always saying do what feels good for you and giving you permission to do all these different alternatives because like you said, everybody's body's different and on different days. One day you might feel plank, one day child pose is where it's at, and you have to listen to that.

Yeah, and like a lot of other fitness instructors I found, like, sometimes that's a missing component where it's like push through the pain, like don't stop, whereas like yoga really helped me break through that mindset of like, I have to like push myself, like I can't take breaks.

It helped me carry it into like other because like I do all kinds of movement now also intuitively like more than intuitive eating. I feel like my lifestyle is just pretty intuitive. And with I, you know, struggled with excessive exercise. So I've had to sort of carry my intuition into movement too. And I've been able to carry that mindset into like HIIT classes or when I go on a run, being able to be like, okay, like, they might be telling me to push through, but like, I'm going to take a break or like I need to lay down right now or sometimes I'll leave my… I have an Apple watch, but I actually haven't worn it for like, I've taken breaks here and there from wearing it. I'm like, not really serving me right now. Like, I just want to like be in tune and listen to what my body's asking for me like on a run. Like if I want to walk, I want to walk and I don't want my watch to tell me like, why are you slowing down?

Annie: Yeah. And it's like, so many of us depend on those external validation or external cues, such as smartphones or smartwatches to tell us what our body should be doing. And if we are doing good or doing quote bad or whatever it is.

And it's like that really hinders your ability to connect with your body. And I'm not saying like smartwatches are bad and nobody should wear them like they have a lot of good features on it. Me personally, I cannot wear a smartwatch. I just get like way too sucked into all of it.

And so I'm like, I'm just going to listen to my body. But you're so right in that how it's very helpful to take breaks from those types of things. If you can wear them in short amounts of time, but to take breaks so that you can reconnect with your body.

Carly: Absolutely. Yeah. And the last thing I'll add is just that if anyone, if there's anyone listening to who has struggled from past trauma, and it's on that healing journey, there's a lot of research on the power of yoga and how it can help you heal from past trauma and things like PTSD.

So yeah, I actually wrote an article on that. That's okay. Awesome medium to with some research, but there's tons of research online to just about the healing power of yoga, even if, you know, you're not, you don't consider yourself someone who's spiritual, or I know that like, there are some Christians who sort of fear the world, fear the world of yoga, but you know, I found that I'm able to take my spirituality and just like I'm able to do what is best for my body, I'm able to like, tell myself the messages and connect with the God that I believe in, like, on my yoga mat.

Annie: Yeah, yeah, that's so good. I mean, yoga is all about connection, like mind, body and spirit. And what you're talking about with trauma, a big part of trauma is disconnection, disconnection from your body, disconnection from your soul and all of those different things. And so having something that can help you to experience that connection again, is really helpful. And I'm sure you, like you said, you have a lot of research on your blog post about that. So that'll be really helpful for a lot of people.

Carly: Yeah, absolutely.

Annie: Awesome. Well, I think we've talked for like an hour and a half or so, and there's plenty more we could talk about, but I think this was super helpful for a lot of people. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Carly: I don't think so. Yeah, I just am grateful for everyone who made it to this point. I'm a, I… like I said, I love self improvement. I also am super passionate about eating disorder recovery and the Enneagram. So like, I knew coming into this, like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to like keep my answer short. So I knew coming into this that we would be talking way, way long.

Annie: Yeah, well, we, we had coffee not too long ago. And we also like, I think we ended up having like, we just needed to get on with our days because we could have sat there at that coffee shop all day.

Carly: Yeah, I was like, I have more to say to you and to talk about, but we should probably just leave.

Annie: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on this episode. I really appreciate all of your insights. And I, like I said, I think this is going to be extremely helpful to so many people.

I do have one last quick question that I'm asking every one of my interviewees on this season, just because I think it'll be interesting to see what people's answers are. So what is your favorite food?

Carly: Yay, I love this question. My favorite food is Oreos. And don't, no one, email or message me and tell me that's not a food because Oreos are. They deserve to be like their own category on whatever the my plate or whatever.

Annie: The Oreo category… “must have Oreos on your plate.”

Carly: Yeah, my 2000 my 2022 goal is to try every single Oreo flavor ever created and available for purchase today. I want to try it all of them before 2023. And so my partner and I are together. And so far we've tried close to 10, I think. And there's like over 80.

Annie: Oh my goodness. You're going to eat a lot of Oreos. Hopefully you don't overdo Oreos by the end of this year. Hopefully you still like Oreos in 2023.

Carly: They're so good. I'm like, I don't know how I could not like Oreos.

Annie: Yeah, I feel that. I love Oreos. Awesome. Well, thank you everybody for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode.

Carly: Thank you.